12 Way Car cheapass ATO/ATC fuse block

[sternwake]

This thing claims 100 amp max, and 30 amps max per circuit.

I wonder how the thickness of the nickel plated 'copper', compares to Blue Seas which cost ~ 5x as much.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/184507509471?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item2af5812adf:g:PlwAAOSwZ-5fmEQ3&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACkBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickk8Fd9si%252FIbtWQr%252BhnlRwjDYooimJBjhNrF69fRKQw0FRF8UXW%252BWPcYrAyqWy3DnJ3BrkeJ2P86pmfdeLbjeQpzOyfjt%252FyR9vz9L0OJeUVBRVlgMXkz3Wpco7Db0zp0LFU%252Be6Tc98IFYcBh6x5XTUyw0Hd9zwGxgdWQ%252F45oy9HqZuouvQqLze0eA2kO2rWfQlUe7nee3WDebPnBL3qDS91a1kzatg0QNQzpBYRw5iY6Jr2kq3SscfC%252BqHMlxyMXEZhL42S0EH3Oqtq8ACNQULQkkdUvAaA0HDxNOApUM50DDe5Oz57Hj7iWWoofTZhoMf1e6EGXGclJF19bAwpBK9%252FElf98EPbVBQyZCuvauVBV1IGpBUdkM%252BzKcUnfuSe9ZJF%252BAIh%252FYcOdLxMsw%252F4RtiIRRNQYedvoz2gTbDY3%252Fs6uEz4IkSkoZo6hudvaoQO6GPj4OoPD5v6a9AgG2we%252F%252Bw%252FfGUZ4T3M1QIChu%252BI%252BYB2lWRXEx1D6x95%252B72lNBM9VwrCOKzlPLhgiS2KzFPE8Xjml%252BdF%252B6n3pUGT6EDiveGAt8xH%252BSNpyuIQ9wNsfDvI%252BxWT1Garorl1eQdUfFJs9mo2h5E287mwVwKrqSCvqHYT6hWSxLZ0%252BgybmTp8xlQSSU7ZWPhpbJa28OcQaNsU4DuwqwudTc86bucCb%252Fd62aVwlvUuLOCgHpU6h%252FJewelAnn, Queenie, and Rat DogyuZzfmxxVyvrGF31Lpav1p%252BsRdbB3GpfQLH88pXwSBZB2yQnyv0xlEX2JytSHUUWnM6gkHV45N5ktxmRQexz3%252F5EPwEMYyQxPUXA9WbKoSs0X1u2HE9Nb%252FNzIWy1qx0K3hT2IuL%7Ccksum%3A18450750947160352c2b011446fabbb08db6244abe33%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524

I have a few circuits, 10AWG, feeding distant fuse block/ distribution blocks, and I've been disappointed in how hot my existing 10 way fuse block gets, and I suspect the relatively thin cross section of certain parts of this new fuse block, would cause the same  resistance/ undesirable heating, waste of voltage.

While this unit claims nickel plated copper, it is likely nickel plated brass, and brass is about 1/3 as conductive as copper, yet the cross section is not 2/3 thicker to keep the resistance the same as if it were pure copper.

Copper is too soft to exert enough force on the fuse tangs. 

All 'quick connect' fittings, like which clamp onto ATC/ATO fuse tangs, are brass, tin or nickel plated, for this reason.

I think I will beef up the center distribution bar with actual copper bar I have left over from beefing up the parallel AC straps on my alternator, and also beef up a few of the circuits closest to the thickened input stud for those circuits which can approach the 30 amp limit.

   
   
   

Perhaps the Blueseas would save a lot of time and negate its 400% price increase, 
but perhaps the cross section of conductive paths are no better than this 14$ unit.

I cut out the led lights.  I don't need any led to tell me which fuse blew, and this led function is weird in that with no fuse in the circuit, one can still read voltage on the far side of the fuse, which shows no voltage with the led lights removed.

[sternwake]

My Weller 100/140 watt solder gun has been annoyingly unreliable, always requiring I remove the tip, polish the mating surfaces and retighten the grub screws for it to work acceptably.  Trying to use it without a mini tune up each time was time wasted, 9 times out of 10

Even after such a tune up, it would sometimes obviously not be heating as fast to as hot as desired.

Without a good 115vac ammeter, I put my wattmeter inline from battery to inverter, powering the gun, and when the soldering iron was working poorly, I saw it was only drawing about 72 watts.

I drilled out the receptacles so the soldering tip  could be inserted deeper, and used drill bit stop collars, hammered to oval shaped, and then the grub screws were able to exert a lot of pressure on the tip.  power it through wattmeter/inverter combo and 225 watts, and the tip got solder melting hot faster than ever.

It had almost gotten the sledgehammer treatment, but now is working better than new.

Since it is working properly, I prepped the fuse block for more copper, so the copper bar I had would be in direct contact with brass.  No nickel plating in between.

   
   
   

The nickel plated brass now has a thicker bar of copper soldered to it.
I soldered some solid copper wire from romex to bridge over the bottleneck on other side of fuse, as the tiny cross section of brass seems totally inadequate for 30 amps of current.  This can certainly be done cleaner.

Anyway,There should be now less voltage drop, and less heating of fuse block when passing a bunch of current through it.

The massive copper bussbar is almost ready for a polishing and installing, I want to add one or 2 more 10-24 stainless studs.  So far there are 4 1/4-20 studs, two  3/8-16, two 5/16-18, and one # 10.

The 1/4-20  studs can stack 3 or 4 ring terminals each.  Those shiny  terminals in the pic  on the 1/4 inch studs are the 'high temperature' ring terminals, nickel plated steel. I did not read their product description close enough, as I thought I was buying tin plated copper.

My existing, soon to be removed bussbar is Stainless with only 1/4-20 stainless studs, The deltec 500 amp shunt itself has far too many ring terminals stacked on them. So the new bussbar should organize things nicely, with far less resistance.

[Blacktank]

my version was to spend $20+ for large buss bars just for the pretty insulators then a cooper bar





my fusebox is blue sea so hopefully something decent inside, blissful ignorance

[justjim]

You pay for what you get but it is hard when people see what they think looks the same from the outside. Most will never know the difference unless it fails.

Right now I have a design customer going through my design. So I get a email. Is this Tracer BN series 100 amp controller just as good as the Victron that you suggest for half the price?

I am soooo tempted to reply as such.

Hi

As I mentioned I get nothing out of having you order the Victron instead of the Tracer. That's why I am not limited to what profits me the most while telling you what to order, only what fits your needs best. So, if I thought that outdated, slow cycling ,piece of trash was anywhere near as good as meeting your needs as the Victron, I would have told you to save the money and order it.

It's a 100 amps at 12 volts for Christs sake. This is not the place to cheap out.

Instead I'll go through the differences like the 100 amp tracer is limited to 1250 watts vs the 1450 watts for the Victron. That slow cycling can cause voltage spikes on cloudy days shutting down inverters and possibly lithium batteries. That the temperature sensor on the tracer is useless on Lithium but on the Victron will tell the controller to not charge if the temperature of the batteries is below freezing. And so on.


Sigh

[rvpopeye]

I ran into that kinda stuff with the bands .
"Why did you hire me if you felt you could do it as well ?"
(You do get to decide if you give out the "clues" ... or not...)

[sternwake]

Almost every purchase in this day and age, one can wonder if they are just paying more for a well known quality name.

The person who pays more definitely thinks, they are getting higher quality.
They have to.
It's psychologically impossible to believe otherwise. It's tied to their soul.

The bargain hunter is desperate to prove their product choice is just as good, at a fraction of the price.
Such people can be infuriatingly annoying. They always have to tell you how little they paid, and that you are a fool for having paid more.

If I had the budget, I would have purchased both Blue Seas and this cheapest possible option, dissected them and compared.

But I was willing only to potentially waste the 13$ on this purchase. I did not want a fuse block with a ground distribution buss.

I was reluctant to even start this thread, as circuit protection is not a place one should hope to save money, but I hoped it would inspire someone with a Blueseas fuse block to open it up, and show just how it was designed/built.

How does the thickness of the brass main bridge feed compare to BlueSeas?
I don't know.

It is Nickel plated brass, and not aluminum or steel, but aluminum is a far better conductor than brass but has that weird dissimilar metal issue that starts a clock ticking.

The portions which claps the fuse tangs, grab those tangs far stronger than any other ATC/ATO fuse I've ever inserted or removed from any other spade fuse block, ever.

I had the extra copper from when I burly -fied the parallel AC straps from stator output, too rectifier on my Chrysler alternator, so adding a strip of copper to the main distribution bridge is/was simple dimple, even if Ideal would have been much thicker brass for higher current carrying capability instead of brass copper sandwich.

The biggest weakness i can see in the design, is the small cross section of brass on the protected side of the fuse, where the plastic dimple helps retain/ align the section. 30 amps passing continuous through this small cross section, must heat it up pretty significantly.

Which is why I bridged the dimple with some solid copper. This is kind of clunky, but it does ~ double that cross section of conductive material at/over/around the dimple. And I will only do this on a few circuits that will have 10awg or 12 awg circuits and 30 or 20 amp fuses.

I also do not like the relatively small metric screw one feeds the fuse block with. I would like it if it was meant for a nice fat thick walled 4 awg ring terminal with a 5/16" stud, but from what i see of the Blueseas version, is that the
Feed screw is similarly sized. I could have used a bigger screw, but the existing screw will be able to exert enough pressure between available mating surface areas.

I highly doubt I'l ever pass much more than 45 amps at once through all 12 circuits combined, which is well under the rated current of the unmodified 13$ unit.

My Loads which are fed with 8AWG, will have dedicated Maxi fuses, which are also not Blue seas priced, and could perhaps be improved, but unnecessarily so.

If I were being paid to design and install systems, spending other's money, I obviously would not waste time and effort hoping the cheapest product can be adequate, before modification, and on par or better, with.

The ATC/ATO fuse block that is passing current as I type this, was bought from Napa 20+ years ago. it has 10 circuits, and I traded it with a friend who had only need for 6 circuits and limited space.
Its fuses almost fall out, and the whole thing is always warmer than the surrounding area.
Returning fuses into it requires precision of angle.

A fuse will get hot, it has to by design anywhere near its rated current but the whole fuse block surrounding that fuse does not need to. Yet it does.

The terminals for the wires are quick connect fittings rather than ring terminals with #10 screws. While these can wiggle their way off, none ever have.

Even if I don't get to have Blueseas bragging rights, this ATC/ATO fuse holder is far better than what currently and easily meets my requirements.

With the modifications, It will be far far better, heating less, causing less voltage drop and perhaps reducing the nuisance fuse blowing, when they simply get weak and blow, not because the circuit was overloaded, but just of their age and heating cycles.

if the components surrounding the fuse, can suck the heat from the fuse, or at least not add to the general heat of that area, then the fuses are less likely to degrade with time and use.

Now as for the cheapo fuses provided with this ATC/ATO fuse block, that is a different matter, and would much prefer Bussman/Eaton quality.


The design of my three older design BlueSeas 6007m 1/2/both/OFF switch, and their subsequent failures, has me believing that BlueSeas product quality, is overrated.

Perhaps like many things, in this day and age of maximum profit now, screw tomorrow, one is simply paying for a well known name, of a product whose original quality has been gutted from what it once was.

Until I see the guts of a Blueseas ATC/ATo fuse block, and find them far superior in design, material quality, and execution, I will consider my Modified cheapo fuse block to be superior.

Sometimes, you just pay for a name in a pretty box, with extra special marketing literature.

[Blacktank]

sorry,to lazy to pull mine but blue sea claims tin plated copper bus bars
https://www.bluesea.com/products/5026/ST..._and_Cover

[sternwake]

The Bus only refers to the ground portion of those fuse blocks.

Copper is too weak soft and malleable to exert enough pressure on the fuse tangs over and over.
It must be brass.

ALL quick connect fittings, rely on the ability of the metal to put pressure on spades.
Copper can apply that pressure, once.

Even threading and tapping copper, I'd not expect the buss to be able to handle much torque. I hope if the negative buss is copper, the screws are going into a steel nut that can handle some torque.

But then there is the dissimilar metal corrosion thing, especially in a salt air environment.

[justjim]

I happen to have a extra Blue Sea 12 volt distribution block. Over the weekend I will try to pull it apart and take pictures.

[sternwake]

That would be awesome to have a comparison.
Better if you have digital calipers.

I am not seeing an easy way to access the guts via the blueseas site's provided photos.

My cheapo required pushing in a small barbed tab at each of the 6 outputs on one side, an lifitng up beyond the barb.

Cursing and multiple flathead jewelers screwdrivers, then other similar implements, were involved, and some of those barbed tabs, will no longer function properly.

After installing the cheapo modified block, I intend to open my 'in use' fuse 10 gang atc block, unless it is glued.
I just looked, it has the similar barbed tabs at each output .
Damn thing has a few fuses registering 92f, the wall right next to it, is 72f, the whole body of the fuse block ranges from 82 to 84f.