Increasing Capacity and Capability

[sternwake]

Consolidating a plan.

The second 50/120 Nippondenso alternator is mounted and nearly perfectly aligned, but unwired as of yet.

There are Four  6v GC-2 AGMs on my workshop's floor. 


190 amps hours, 900 CA. 680 CCA. 480 reserve minutes 140 LBS total 70 Lbs each




https://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-mari...--15020282


The TPPL AGM g31 Northstar:

  103 amp hours, 1380CA. 1050CCA. 220 reserve minutes.  75Lbs.


https://www.northstarbattery.com/product/nsb-agm31



The GC-2's  are 4+ years old, but were kept in pretty good shape by a programmable Magnum inverter charger, and rarely ever cycled.  I am not quite sure how good of shape they are. When they were still on the boat, I saw them maintain 12.4v powering 40 to 60 amps of inverter load for about an hour, IIRC.

 They are  more capacity than my workshop needs, as I do have grid power available,  So two of them will be going in the Van.  Once there I can better judge their remaining capacity. 

 Right now, 4 of them maintain respectable voltage powering fans and LEDS for hours on end, and when I let loose the 100 amp  powermax adjustable voltage power supply on them, they can max it out, which they likely could not if they were not in Ok to good or perhaps better condition.



The underbody battery box was designed to hold two group 27's, which are about 9.25" to the tops of their terminals.
The group 31 is about  9.625" tall to the top of its terminals, and has perhaps 1/8" until the hatch's underside
 The GC-2s are taller at 10.5 inches. Some GC-2s go as tall as 11 inches.

 
Right now, a single group 31 Northstar AGM is my only IN van battery. 

The Stock size battery is apparently a 600 CCA group 34 according to RockAuto. I have used a group 24 and a group 27 and even barely shoehorned in a group 31 flooded marine battery on the stock battery tray, in the engine compartment.

I think my Owner's manual states the engine battery needs to be 550 CCA or bigger.

In 2015, that  flooded marine group 31 became too wasteful of Solar, and I removed it, and the rusted battery tray it resided upon.
I was modifying the area to fit a large GC-12 size battery, like a Trojan T-1275 or the Lifeline GpL-30HT. This required getting a new Windshield wiper reservoir, and the project started stalling.

While considering the options, I realized the single group 27 Northstar AGM I had, was more than capable of meeting my overnight  needs, and still easily start my engine, So the Engine compartment remained free of a battery, or battery tray, until yesterday.  That 90 amp hour 930CCA AGM TPPL battery lasted a total of 6 years and had something like 1200 deep cycles on it, many hundred cycles discharged to well below the 50% SOC boogeyman.
 
It was replaced with a G31 Northstar AGM in Mid December 2019. 103Ah and 1050CCA.  This Beastly TPPL AGM  battery cranks the engine so quickly it is scary, and it has accepted 134 amps when well depleted.  I think somewhere around 160 to 170 amps would be required to instantly reach absorption voltage when well depleted.  Soon I will have upto 230 amps  available bfrom dual alternators.

That single 31 has been Solo, in the dual 27 tray, behind the driver's seat under a flush fitting hatch in the floor, inside a cabinet one of whose walls is my electrical wall.

None of the wiring/Cabling there is pretty.  Functional, problem free, but ugly.  Some crappy components, crimped with crappy tools, at different times, to different standards over nearly 20 years.

I want to be able to max out a 2000 watt PSW inverter, that I do not yet own.
I want both alternators to be able to supply at least 1000 watts of that load at hot idle, to that  potential 2000 watt load.
I want all that old cabling thickened, properly terminated with professional quality tools and components, and better organized.

The group 27 battery box is just under 10 inches high to the bottom of the hatch.
The AGM GC-2s are 10.5 tall.
The Hatch cover is being rebuilt to accept 11 inch tall batteries with a few CH's extra room atop..

A New group 31 battery tray is Now in place in my engine compartment.  I used a door from an older AC electrical box, and some thick angle brackets my old man gave me.

  It is mounted about 3/4" lower than the stock battery tray was.  I let Ospho etch all the metal and covered it with several layers of Yacht enamel before installing and painting one final layer over it all.

Dodge has some weird drainage with the ram air vents below the windshield, but basically rain water used to be allowed to run under hood and run along the inside of the firewall, and these vents would also allow some water to run inside and into the engine compartment  as well.
   
I used some tool box liner to divert all rainwater, but found water was still getting where I thought it should not be able to.  

Strong light and a mirror revealed some cracked original  panel adhesive  up above the where the stock battery tray resided. A chisel removed the body filler and revealed the rust below.

In removing and treating the rust, the hood got removed, as well as the wiper valance, and both those got treated for rust and repainted.

While Ospho treats and preps both paint and rusted or bare metal for paint quite well, the paint I use requires some 20+ hours between thin coats.

My surfboard epoxy can go on thicker, be more impervious to moisture, and bond significantly stronger to anything it is put upon.  All the areas which once had the body panel adhesive , after proper prepwork,  were painted with Epoxy, and then the big gaps and holes filled with Epoxy thickened with Milled glass fibers and wood flour.  Once that cured and was lightly sanded  it was painted.  Then the angle brackets/supports and new Battery tray installed and painted again.

I have some HDPE 'starboard' that I cut into 1/8" thick strips and used Amazing goop to adhere to the tray. These will raise the battery up slightly from the bottom of the tray, and while no rainwater should be able to get in/on the battery tray anymore, it will be able to drain if it does.

So the 31 is basically ready to be moved, and then I can work on getting the GC-2s in place and wiring them up.

There is 2 AWG running from Battery tray to 1/2/BOTH/off Ignition switch and to Shunt.
I'd like to replace this with 1/0 or 2/0. but...Ideal costs   $$$$$$$$.

According to GenuineDealz, 

The maximum allowable amperage of single conductor 2 AWG marine grade battery cable is 210 amps outside of engine spaces and 178 amps inside the engine space.

If the NS 31 could maintain 11 volts, 2000 watts is a 181 amp load.
But I never intend to run 2000 watts from just the G31, and the Alternators will likely be contributing 50+ amps each on their own 2awg cabling when I 'need' 2000 watts, and the battery switches are rated for 350 amps continuous, if wired with 4/0.

So two battery banks and two Alternators powering the potential 2000 watt load will have 4 runs of 2 awg.
Perhaps not ideal from a voltage drop standpoint, but in all honestly I am not expecting more than 1600 watts of load at any one time.

But I have some leftover 2/0, and only a short run is needed from GC-2s to 1/2/B/O switch.
Likewise the distance between my 3 1/2/B/O switches means I can run 2/0 between them.  The Other 2 switches divert the load from either battery, or the solar/ plug in grid powered charging sources to either battery.

I have a shitty Absolute brand '140' amp circuit breaker.  This CB is currently on the Alternator to battery switch feed. It once tripped after 5 minutes of 90+ amps and then a few seconds of 110 amps.  I later found that the cabling to the switch had a very poor crimp, from 2006 or so. Doubled 6awg from jumpoer cables.
Think hammer and screwdriver and I could wiggle wire and see strands move on the other end of the crimp. Shameful really.  I have nearly 8 foot of 2 AWg from the boat, but think I need closer to 11 feet to get from Chrysler alternator to circuit breaker.  Making the case for retasking the 2awg from battery switch to engine battery and using 2/0.......

 I have a new Cooper Bussman 150 amp circuit breaker.  The Chrysler alternator can just slightly exceed its 120 amp rating, the New Nippondenso alternator came in 11 amps shy of its 120 amp rating.

I guess I'll be putting the Absolute 140 amp CB on the ND alternator, and the Bussman on the Chrysler alternator.

My 500 amp Deltec shunt has too many terminals on it, especially the load side.

I want to make a Buss bar that fits on  this shunt directly.  Big thick copper with fat Studs.

Turns out these free GC-2 batteries are going to cost me a lot of time and money, as I cant seem to not upgrade everything just in case I need to be in the middle of nowhere and power a tablesaw without having to carry a generator.

Still need to wire up the second alternator.  I have the second voltage regulator all modded for external control, but need to incorporate switches to turn on either or or both.

Also want to be able to see amperage from each alternator, and amperage into / out of each battery bank
not enough room on dash for these displays.

I got two more of the hall effect ammeters, same as already on my Dash, and one which claims to be am amp hour counter battery monitor as well, but I think it just reverts to '100%' as soon as the preprogrammed absorption voltage is reached.  I've not yet really played with it yet, other than to see if it lit up with voltage applied.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC300V-400A-LCD-Hall-Effect-Voltmeter-Ammeter-Battery-Capacity-Coulometer-Sensor/174047263019?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item288606792b:g:9BoAAOSwnXpdkHiq&amdata=enc%3AAQAFAAACgBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%252Fn%252BzU5L90Z278x5ickkSG%252BOFgrj2Yvbvmrj2TAdM3PJ1eaPAHxkaTJuCcI%252BHZS%252F9%252F7KDp1em4H3NA1eBrcFV%252BS6Yveujf9Jjj8kZ8DCOVwH8r9lWCvi7OhsMEg1tkZg2vmRnrjIzsBpj4wIpZDxoSa5exLWKifeP3%252BHTMrOIalB%252FTVDo4TvUXGDiBHx6zRaPb6HdVQ9TePvUWFlChe6tnY%252BRkgBHa1VOe7GmYBMSIrcy1HZBl9H8kUo8gpwNs0Xqo2OI7FLpn44%252B1Rpar%252FliLELgKwShvI4wIUsWpbWSFlVJUBvT6Dnv4O%252FniaDCgcFo5tCbtmX8enx8Ie6HeqmTAP%252FErtCsXBY%252F2dX%252FUk99ALNwfOoTi9QQ9PTOHMAxuF7bUa%252BL4TXNboNj1A%252Brm%252BzgIUnNeeqbHq8uYp28dayYWF3REXMwj%252BWsPHHn65qk8xeaoHCWF6PQgcO4Eg%252B1j19m8iLyXf05WY6fq6r3FfhEELwmTvJGwubhZ1%252BLU34zvqV2xmiMya9F110WmjpOvMEJ21tPFn6sFjWAWcAXRVkAvVWB2DeuuIh1ftgO6p648Ru8g5VMOhs3zptH8Pc1Ul32iMdLISSZra9%252B5wX%252F71YoJyCY4gpmOLdqJ9%252BEgcf3HnrI%252FMvMaQ15RYR1inJpKTioV1I3EqV2aUrvUZRZB6OWuT93ij%252FZ0aB6vp%252BLNvodFtiew256j35ILZYetJ%252FNmI8Z9Vo%252FjsniFUxZUWVbg42A7jBQHOdzZsyxwjVAmP8YjJ7tyrSYLFJNCV%252BIpGiKPUAdB4kIiKo%252Bb7PWW3PPEVpzN%252Fh4U7KX%252BiyeugPFADAjeU%253D%7Ccksum%3A17404726301949e6d1dd0a994859b5ecae6887e2eaab%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2334524

Was hoping to further consolidate my plan, but now I just have a headache.

The cardboard is the maximum dimensions of a group 31 footprint.  The actual footing is slightly smaller.

While I only recently got the battery tray installed, I did wind up painting the area white in 2015.  The grey black areas are where the original panel adhesive was.  The grey is primer and original paint color, the black is rust turned black by the Ospho.

   
   
   


The Orange plastic is the ceramic H4/9003/HB4 headlight socket with the hard to find 12 AWG pigtails for maximum voltage delivery to filament and thus max brightness.

  ThisH4 headlight  Connector determined the height of the battery tray. 
 I have about 1/4 inch gap between the bottom of the tray and this connector.
 
 I am using Hella DOT housings,  and Phillips Xtreme +130 bulbs, with the blue coating removed,  in them.

These bulbs are not long life,  and this new battery tray will complicate bulb changes, taking a few minutes rather than the 30 seconds it took when there was no battery tray here. 

This lowered battery tray also eliminates the future potential use of LEDs in these housings, Should LEDs ever be able to properly function in a halogen housing at some point in the future.  

While there are plenty of H4 LEDs I could have been using up until now, LED bulbs installed  inside housing designed for a halogen filament, are a giant Fuck you to everybody driving on the other side of the road, screaming ignorant inconsiderate selfie taking narcissist,  I try to not be like those ducking fouchebags.

Anyway another example of a small job becoming epic in proportion.
But the largest easily obtainable 12v starter battery shoehorned into the stock location, does have benefits.

[rvpopeye]

Well , sounds like you're getting it all sussed out .
All spec'd to mil level !. plus....
Between those alt's and the solar ,,,I doubt you'll have much problems staying powered up ! YUP YUP !
I loved the line about running a table saw without a generator....
If you ever sell that van , I want dibs.

[sternwake]

Planning for a capability I might never need or employ......

But that gives me an excuse to build another Hollow wood surfboard, perhaps in the desert and have its weight come in 20% less than if it were built and sealed in a more humid enviro.

   
But there's a lot to be said about the workshop location


The Northstar AGM g31 is in my engine compartment with plenty of room to spare. 

 My Hall effect Digital ammeter's ring sensor is on the wire going to the house battery, so right now, I cannot see amps into or out of the Northstar in its new location, while driving. 

I did relocate the one vsense wire which senses voltage, so one voltmeter reads actual battery voltage and the other reads 0.00 as there is no battery there.

 

The dual g27 tray,  decided it wanted to be wirewheeled and soaked in Ospho, twice, then wirewheeled again, then Osphoed a third time, then wirewheeled, then thoroughly wiped with Acetone, then sealed with a thick coat of surfboard laminating Epoxy.  Totally overkill as most of the tray is completely overbuilt and the rust only surface and  superficial, but.....

I have an old Panasonic 9.6v drill that has a long gone Nicad battery.  It now feeds on battery voltage via 10AWG and 45 amp powerpoles.  A wire wheel on a drill, as opposed to angle grinder is nice, as the drill is reverse able.  My wattmeter registered a 26 amp max load, spinning a large wirewheel, but I had the clutch set to not break my wrist.

Wirewheels on angle grinders are awesome too, especially if one can slow the grinder with a PWM router speed controller. 

Hint hint>

https://www.harborfreight.com/router-spe...43060.html

I don't have this exact one but the one I do employ is one of th emost employed AC elkectrical devices I have.  I use it on angle grinders, ShopVac's, belt sanders, box fans, Jig saws.  Speed 9 of 10 often requires ~50% to 60% of the amperage as 10 of 10 and can be much more controllable, and quieter.  I have used it on my MSW inverter without issue

Since Paint, takes forever to dry, and requires so many thin coats applied so many hours apart, to actually seal the treated metal below, I mixed about 300ML of surfboard epoxy, by weight, not volume, and used a fat nappy 3" wide roller to apply one single thick layer over the whole treated battery tray.
  
Epoxy also has the advantage of being much less stinky and only being stinky for 2 to 4 hours, depending on ambient temperature and the thickness of the film applied.  Since 98% of it will see no UV light, I might not even paint over most of it.

Epoxy has way better adhesion than paint, and will encapsulate the etched steel and treated rust much better than Paint ever could, and all treated steel, is now basically receiving Epoxy on the Ospho etched surface rather than paint.  While paint might have better elasticity, that is not a factor in this application, but if I find it has all flaked off in a year or 10, I will have to eat crow.

Scanning my wiring diagram, I am contemplating having one alternator hooked to battery 1 and one to battery two regardless of the position of the switch itself.  Turning the switch to BOTH, should just combine both battery banks and alternators and OFF will still disable starting from either battery.  The plan has been to wire both batteries to Switch 1's common and divert to 1/2 or both as desired.  The hall effect ring sensor's 3/4" inner diameter, are why I want to decide and live with,  rather than switch out at a later date.  I can fit 2/0 cable through the sensor, but not a 2/0 thick walled lug/ ring terminal.

Still contemplating some variables, and will likely have 2 Deka Intimidator  GC-2 AGMs installed  fairly soon, and table the rest of the project for a while until I sort out those variables.

The main 1/2/both off switch will be getting a relocation, and once I start that aspect of the project, the whole electrical wall will be rebuilt and all potential parts will have to be on hand, and I have not yet decided on those.

[Cammalu]

Planning for a capability I might never need or employ......

But that gives me an excuse to build another Hollow wood surfboard, perhaps in the desert and have its weight come in 20% less than if it were built and sealed in a more
 

Sternwake. We are so glad to hear the news that you are coming to YARC Camp this year

[sternwake]

Perhaps I might. The whole blank tank requirement for that area is an issue though.

This project was on hold the last few days as the weather cooled enough and that pesky tree trying to grow roots on the roof and lifting a corner of its concrete slab, of my dilapidated shed/workshop needed to see various sharp implements. Swinging a honed Latin Machete can be cathartic.

I did not notice it when I got the West marine AGMS, but they all have a 5/17 sticker on the side of them, so are 4 years old.

These have a 14.1v to 14.4v absorption, whereas the Northstar says 14.8v max and 13.6v float. The WMs say 13.44 to 13.56v float.

The specs claim an equalization voltage of 14.6v.

Since they were free, my voltage choices will be dictated by the Northstar's desires.

The Deka intimidators cycling specs are not all that impressive, they just say 300, but do not state whether that is 300 cycles to 100% discharge or 50%. Practical sailor did a PSOC test and found they lost a lot of capacity quickly in such usage, way more than Odyssey Lifeline or Northstar.

The Deka Intimidator lineup is often rebranded by Sams club and costco as duracell/energizer and autoparts stores 'platinum' agm batteries.

Joe Q public seems to think AGM = superbattery immune to abuse. Whereas they are likely to have poor lifespans in today's Autos since they care about 0.003 more mpg rather than battery longevity from proper prompt full recharging.

Anyway once installed I can access their performance and condition and beat them up a bit.

[sternwake]

Ordered some non insulated wire terminations.
0.250  female Quick connects for 8 awg,  and also for 10-12 awg.
10-12 ring terminals for # 10 screws
10-12 ring terminals for 1/4 inch studs

Did not read the 1/4 inch stud description close enough. Says high temp, nickel plated steel in small leters when scrolling way down. Shitballs.  Not gonna try and return them. My mistake. Can snip off the barrell and have nickel plated steel washers.

The other items arrived, and again,  out came the file, and magnet.

Only the 10-12 ring terminals for the # 10 studs are actually tin coated copper.

The quick connects are all nickel plated brass, despite saying tin coated 110 copper 'Marine'  and 'mil spec' and 'made in usa' and 'high quality' in product description.

I've started the return process for those, as they are worthless to me


Sherco auto parts on Ebay.....Not sure they are aware they are selling junk,  They do look very close to tin coated copper, but soon as I pulled one out of the package I was suspicious and out came the file.
Will see how they respond.

Drove a bit over an hour north on highway. Van seemed louder.... Lots of road noise/ tire noise.

No batteries in the underbody battery tray, and the hatch cover is not fully secured, and the usual storage items not in place above the hatch to attenuate the noise.
  Apparently all that stuff was cancelling a lot of sound entry. While underneath I wrap a knuckle on various panels  around the battery tray and Bongggggggggggggggggg!
 freaking rings like a bell.

At the time  of building the battery tray, I had next to no experience doing any metal fabrication and my friend was in charge.
While I was a bit unsure it would be strong enough,  I was told it was overkill.

indeed, no welds show any issues and it held ~ 108 lbs of battery max for years
But the two Deka GC-2 AGMS are 70 Lbs each.  The tray has never held that much weight, so I start imagining what could fail if it were to fail.

I've added one diagonal so far, which is likely overkill, but if the weakest spot parts, it can no longer go very far.

No access to a mig welder anymore, So fasteners and some well prepped steel and more epoxy both regular and thickened with milled glass fibers on all mating points.  After epoxy cures I rap the ringing panels with a knuckle and it is no longer a  reverberating BONGgggggggggg, but not quite a acoustically dead 'thump' either. 

 Should be an improvement in interior road noise at highway speeds, hopefully.  Freaking over the Cooper AT3 tire drone. 

When I drove North, I started the Van on the Northstar-31 which was depleted 67 of its 103 AH at the time. I intentionally dragged it that low just to see how well it could crank the engine depleted that much.
  It cranked a little slower but still easily started. 

 The ancient Single alternator V belt, which was previously on poorly aligned pulleys, did not like passing 65+ amps to the depleted battery, So I was dialing the voltage downward until it sounded a little less pissed off then dialing it up a bit in stages, as battery filled.

 I intend to get new  matched V belts when get a pulley machined for the Nippondenso alternator.  It is still unwired and is acting liker an idler pulley 

My dash Ammeter is temporarily inop, but when I stopped and tried to find a different address in an unfamiliar area, the solar by itself was able to maintain absorption voltage, so less than ~ 11 amps was required to maintain 14.7v.

The new hatch lid design is still evolving slowly.  I want strength and acoustic dampening and an air tight seal and more chafing protection..

Back when I had flooded batteries and would EQ them, I could smell them inside the 
van as the hatch cover was not perfectly sealing.
  Not an issue with AGM, but I still want the hatch to be be a much tighter fit.

[rvpopeye]

Progressing ever forward,,,me thinks this project will never be done ?
The experimenting gene is still too strong .....
It's gonna be a sweet ride though !
Sucks about the crappy connectors .

[sternwake]

This van is closing in on being a 20 year long project. But it really has never driven better, nor been more comfortable, reliable, or been more functional. I got two more years before the noisy tires age out.

Before buying this Van, I was overseas, often with a van, knowing I was going to be selling it in a few months when I left for another country, and thus any serious desirable ergonomic functional improvements not worth the effort/ expense, and that alone annoyed me, as logic often does.

These days I often find myself just going too far. I used to make fun of an older friend of mine as he would expend 200% the effort and time for a 1% potential increase in function/ longevity.

Now I am doing similar, and he's in a care facility with rapid onset Dementia.

I have the luxury of time on this project, but am definitely taking it a bit too far, and today, accomplished nothing.

[Scott7022]

I’ve been told by source providers that many Buddhist monks attain about 75 to 85% of their spiritual ambition after five years of training. The next 10% takes ten times the devotion and the remaining a lifetime.

Perfection for perfections sake is art or madness. Depends on the perspective.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rvpopeye]

The insanity leads to the art......