Battleborn batteries

[TWIH]

You are correct although I do not suggest BattleBorn a the brand to buy. I suggest LifeBlue for the blue tooth app that shows you exactly what the state of charge is as well as amps in and out, temp, status and number of cycles.

Lithium are the latest buzz word product. 6 Volts, AGM's Pure sine wave, MPPT, as well as a host of others are buzz words that people try to make out as the end all as far as that type of product goes. What people do not understand is while a product may be the best at something, that something is only a benefit to you if it matters.

I just installed a set of 100 Ah Lithium's in a Sprinter Roadtrek. It doubled the storage capacity without increasing the footprint. No other type of battery was going to do that for the customer.

Three of those batteries effectively replaces my three Lifeline 8-D's. A much smaller footprint and a quarter of the weight too. My trailer handles a quarter ton of weight with its 3000 pound CCC but that kind of weight takes a chunk out of most rigs cargo capacities.

The blue tooth replaces a lot of angst about state of charge. No amp counters, hydrometers, voltage charts, holding absorption until...GUESSING. Just charge them until they stop the charging and you are done.

While the salesperson at Starlight Solar told me that in reality Lithiums DO  need to reach 100 percent from time to time, it is true that not reaching it all the time is not damaging to the battery like it is with lead. While you may not understand that if you have shore power, out here in the wild because it may mean you do not need the generator, alternator or shore power as long as you do not run out of power.

Now if you have the room, can handle the weight and can keep lead acid batteries properly charged then it will be a hard sell to say that the difference in cost is worth the additional cycles. You can replace a set of marine batteries or pair of 6 volts many times before they cost as much as one Lithium does. In my case my Lifelines are 9 years old and still service my needs. Lifelines are not that much cheaper than Lithium but even so, I doubt either I or my trailer will last long enough to wear a new set out.

So it's all in how you look at it but it may not be a direct cost comparison.

Only real concerns I have for the average 4 season dweller are: 1 - They don’t charge well off the alternator, and 2 - they don’t charge (or are not supposed to be charged) when the batteries are below 32.  Thats the batteries, not the outside temps.

But for me, if in an unheated van (while at work) in January when it’s 20 degrees outside and inside, it would be a problem. Course I don't have that kind of money so its a non-issue for me.

[justjim]

In that situation I suggest the low temperature version of the Lifeblue Lithium that is usable down to -4* F. As a boondocker I would like to know what kind of power the heating pads use of course but even if I had to use a generator to replace the power at least they remain usable. They do cost a few hundred more than the regular version.

[CatPerson]

JustJim: "What people do not understand is while a product may be the best at something, that something is only a benefit to you if it matters."

Concise and brilliant.  A new Corvette will go 194 mph, but how many times would you take it to the limit, if ever?

[TWIH]

no doubt they are better but it's a $150 battery vs a $950 battery,is there $800 difference in performance there?

“That was the error in Technomadia's concept of a no generator system. What do you do if you run out of power? In a discussion with the owner of a bank of Lithium's I heard all kinds of lame things until out of frustration they gave up and said YOU MOVE! So instead of using a quiet little generator that sips gas you pack up your rig, fire up the most expensive, gas guzzling generator possible...a V8 and drive to where the sun is shining. Lithium or not, I am keeping my generator.”

Appreciate the balanced reply. So many of the lithium adherents are acting like their sheet don’t stink now that they have switched over. Not so long ago it was AGM’s that were the greatest thing since sliced bread...

The other nice “balance” is that you allow that there must be multiple battery charging sources. To omit a relatively cheap and simple one because it requires (OMG) fossil fuel is to simply add cost, carbon footprint or whatever to your life.  The advantage to a 1K to 2.5K gennie is that you can run some of our modern conveniences (microwave, blender, space heater, battery charger or whatever) without killing your battery bank.

OK I’m not out there fulltime, but I read and watch and compare for when I will be. I’d be much more likely to invest <$500 in a gennie than $1K in a battery.

[Scott7022]

Great discussions, good opinions and interesting.
Jim pointed out very good points and the best point: it may be the best at what it does..." perfect it is all about application. If you don't need it then why pay for it.

My YouTube expert piss off is kinda the opposite. Some semi informed spouting stupid about why they would never buy when last week they were e-begging for gas money. You can't buy, so go home you ain't tall enough. Sorry yes it sounds elitest but if you're talking crap because they didn't give you a freebie or spreading false info then go home.

Sternwake's mainsail post is perfect. I have been reading him for years as I, like twih, needed it for radios that work better at 13 and wanted that voltage for as long as possible. I had a lithium cell custom made for a pilot house power supply for two radios, side scan sonar and plotter, and radar. If you want to be informed without all the bullshit read the posted link. You'll be ahead of 90% of YouTube experts.

When I got interested in overlanding my first thought was Lipro. Overlanding or as most cops/road enforcement types call it overloading. Weight, size,fuel,food,water,gear,rig,fuel,blah fucking blah! Gets heavy and too heavy far too quickly. In boats I didn't care. Weight is ballast weight is low, riding waves in 32 feet of 10 foot beam rig is less fun than on a board. In Canada for a time cops were waving anything remotely looking overland into be weighed. Huge fines, license issues, insurance issues, impounds. So that was when I started and the ONLY info then was Marine and Mainsail was our Sternwake or technomad and his old bus build with green Chinese custom bank. It was what it was.

I am different in opinion from Jim because Battle Born was the first to really address many of the issues presented by our application. At least in North America. I talked to them twice, once after ordering some carbon foam units and a few months ago. Both times I started off by saying "I am not going to buy your batteries in the next six months but I have a couple of questions" They responded no problem and talked to me for over half an hour. Customer service.

But like Sternwake points out Lithium is a different animal. So is the system approach. The Bluetooth battery indicator is nice and if I was only swapping batteries for weight capacity and longevity it would make sense. But from a ground up system approach the Victron unit that handles other stuff I need has the same thing integrated into the system. While Battleborn started off with: The only drop in replacement Lipro, they have intelligently moved past this. While true to various degrees mixing chemistries has always been wrong and will probably remain so. My boat 40 amp/hr lipro only lasted five years.

So as all the posts from our Gurus point out well. Do you need it? Are you at the point to do it correctly? So how do you know? Well you spend the time to read Mainsail you listen to our own experts and you ask questions. Then you evaluate your needs vs wants and your budget do the calculations and make the best informed decision you can.

As to the generator talk. Simple spare tire thinking "two is one and one is none" Why on earth if you could afford to spend a grand on a battery would you go deep dark off grid without one? Stupid and suggesting such is like saying come live in the desert for 300 bucks a month. "But I have enough solar and reserve blah fucking blah"
"Hey buddy diodes fail. Got a back up 150MPPT controller?"
"I got two new Victrons as spares"
"Then you could have bought a cheap generator and saved money and had a backup for when the flying manure spreaders destroy your solar array or the EMP takes out all your none shielded electronics"
Followed by a swift kick to the junk for suggesting stupid.

Comment about low temp claims. I am not an expert, no guru status here. But I don't know how they beat science. The shop that is building my rig said the provider they used claimed minus 20 metric charging capable. It is a German company and while the Canadian company doing the build had used the German companies warm units they had not used their cold weather units. The company liked the system canbus design and had loads of success with it. I asked Mark how cold it was outside as they are in Alberta. Minus 15 was his answer. I asked if he had a cold unit to discharge it to fifty percent and then stick it outside for an hour to rest before charging it back at .5c rate of charge. My rig is going BattleBorn and Marks company now uses BattleBorn for rigs that will see cold.

Mark is a true expert and he fell victim to the; "well the company said this and it was true. I've used the, for years without a single issue. The same must be true for this new product."

Again our experts words ring true. Do you need it.
If your paying huge dollars so you can charge at minus temps. You must need it. And not so you can get in one more episode of GOT on Netflix. You NEED it as in I will be in the North without great sun and DEADLY cold tempatures and need to power my heater, water tank blanket heaters, and Truma furnace. Or I DIE. Then you need it.

Otherwise you just want to brag around the campfire in the desert.

[RoamingRaven]

Recently, I was told I should change my 12v batteries to 6v batteries. The person that told me didn't elaborate on why or how. It's almost time for me to get new batteries and I do want more amp hours. My question - Why would/should I change from 12v to 6v? and Do I connect the 6v like I have the 12v system?

Unless I know for sure what I am doing, I'm going to invest in AGM more amp hour batteries 12v

[Scott7022]

I accidentally hit send and then got busy so missed the edit cut off.

Alternators are made to quickly recharge your starting battery and then keep up with your electronics drain while driving. One of the early adopters of lithium on overland forum cooked his Tiger rigs dual alternators charging his substantial lithium bank. Now it is easier but again system approach. How big, where are the batteries? All come in to play.

Been to a drive in lately? Bigger stereos smaller batteries means two guys with jump starters can make a few bucks at the end of the show. More if it is a double feature. Back in the good ol days this was usually not a problem. Even my 1969 Datsun 2000 Fairlady never had an issue at a triple feature drive in even with a POWERFUL Pioneer stereo with an 8watt amplifier. Now? Go and you'll see.

Issue with alternators and charging are wire related number one, then alternator specific number two. The wires are usually too small to carry the current the distance to the batteries or accumulators as they are called in Russian. For car stereo we always upgraded all the power and ground wires in the engine bay as job one and then ran a single right sized fused power and ground from source points back to where the power was to be distributed. Why is this good? Resistance. Resistance as Trotsky discovered, not his real name by the way he was Jewish and not proud of it, makes everything more difficult. Everything has to work harder. From the starting gate. Back then it required proper tools and know how to put wires together. Now you can take a piece of yarn, I like pink, trace your power leads, grounding runs and mark down the length, adding an inch or two for wiggle room and then go online and order. Be careful to pick a good company that has fine copper and good sheathing and upgrade the size (10 gauge 4 gauge)two or three steps. Everything in your engine bay electrical now loves you as life is easier.

Take a circuit breaker sized to the max current of your alternator or alternators combined and come off the positive post of your battery with a right sized wire adding the circuit breaker within 9 inches or shorter. Go back to your inside PowerPoint and if you're anal like me do the same for the ground without the circuit breaker. Care to place O rings in drilled holes and protect the wires from damage till you get them to where you need them. Secure them and go over the wire run again carefully thinking where can Mr Murphy bite me on the ass.

Now you can connect to positive and negative of your house battery adding another circuit breaker nine inches from house positive. But wait Scott you tard were mixing chemistry. Yes and that is the drop in replacement part of BB and Jims brand claims. The BMS will sort you out. Until as Sternwake points out it doesn't. This also doesn't insure your alternators safety and happiness. For big modern trucks and a 120 amp/hr battery you should be ok. Read should.

Point to take note both companies warranties exclude excessive BMS trips or faults as abuse and can void warranty coverage.

Ok should isn't good I need: will be good.

System approach

Then you need an isolator that shuts off your charging to the house at intervals to give the alternator a rest.
Or
An isolator you can control to separate your main from your house as you need/remember.
Or
A DC to DC charger to regulate the charge current and isolate your main from your house. Good option.
Or
A power management unit like the one from RedArc that manages all your input power sources, solar, generator, alternator, and shore connection and automatically switches, isolates, and charges at a regulated manner say .25 or .5c. Goodest as they would say in Russia. Also very big bucks!

If all I was doing is this then I'd use Jims batteries and an inexpensive right sized puresine inverter a fuze bank or breakers for 120 and call it done. With the blue tooth reporting and the self heating cold temp batteries in the lower 48 you'd be fine.

Take away is bleeding edge tech is costly and while people focus on the batteries cost the complete system approach is going to surpass it quickly if your talking built right built to last.

A high end mechman alternator that will laugh at a five hundred amp hour battery pack is 800 bucks. It will run 200 amps (less than .5c) till the house bank is charged day in day out. I've used them, well smaller ones, in every high end car stereo build and never had or heard of a failure. Had two on my last boat 150amp, not Marine rated (shhh don't tell coastguard ((that's what blowers are for)) for four years and never an issue.

The RedArc battery manager is 600 or 800.

The cheap part is the battery 100amp/hr and the wiring. Depending on the size and length of wire needed it could be fifty to 250 bucks. The everyone take away is wire is cheap. Even so modern car manufacturers use cheaper and just enough to make it run. The simple engine bay rewire is a good modification for anyone that lives in their vehicle as few rigs manufactured for North America were designed for full time. Some of you know I bought a Lada Bronto recently I was going to do this upgrade. It's Russian cheap car. Yeah eight gauge wire off the alternator and four gauge battery wires. I left it alone. Look at your big bad black dodge power wagons dual 170 amp/hr alternators 10 gauge off the alternators. Those were designed to get groceries and go off road on weekends and the Lada was designed for Russian climate and roads. It fails you could die.
My non-guru opinions
Gurus?

[Scott7022]

Roaming Raven

I'll answer as you posted in between my oops edit and the gurus can elaborate. It depends on a few factors. Where are your batteries now? Do you like them there? I've seen lots of TT with the batteries on the tongue, shorter wire runs, no venting issues, easy to service.

I don't like the location. Easy to get damaged, out in the cold, easy to steal.

I like them in the rig for the above reasons. The problem is open lead acid batteries vent fumes while charging, and can spill. Sealed AGM, absorbed glass mat, do not (well kind of a lie but vent pretty much zero unless abused). So open plate batteries need to be in a vented to the outside enclosure to be within code because they vent toxic fumes and AGM do not. So that is step one where are you batteries now and do you want to move them.

To answer your other question no you don't wire them the same. Two six volt batteries need to be wired in series. Negative batt one to positive batt two and then positive batt one to negative batt two. This creates a 12 volt battery. A lot of trailer sales places suggest this.

Good call on unless I know...

People burn trailers up doing stuff wrong and stupid. No worries though Jim is famous and a super nice guy, I've met him in person and he is even better looking and the mysterious Sternwake is the resident magic smoke witch doctor and has forgotten more about this stuff than most you tubers have learned. Your in goood hands. I am just here for comedic relief and tall stories. Taller than our weirdo overlords pirate ship mast.
Personally I love happy batteries and like cats and dogs living together they don't like being outside. Well cats are fifty fifty when the door is open. So in all seriousness inside AGM and increase to what you need amp/he wise. You're up near my home town Vancouver BC and we get cold. Cold battery kills capacity.

[sternwake]

RR

6 volt gc batteries are true deep cycle batteries.
Most flooded marine batteries are not true deep cycle batteries and as such will not be able to achieve the same amount of deep cycles.

The 6v GC batteries are easier to fully charge, which helps them live longer too.
As for AGM they are not the super battery that their price might indicate to some.
They do need to be brought to full charge just as much if not more so than their flooded brethern.
They also are happier when the chaarging source can achieve nearly 30 amp per 100 amp hours of capacity, occassionally.

The line between marine/starting and deep cycle is blurred with 12v AGMs.
AGM is the new automotive forum buzzword and manufacturers have responded with cheap as they can make AGMs.  These are likely poor choices for deep cycle duty
If you do not need the no offgass, no water checking, no corrosion on battery terminal benefits, then flooded GC 6v batteries will save you money and likely last longer.

a pair of gc-2s might not give you any capacity benefit over 12v, depending on your 12v's.  If they are group 24, they will. if they are group 27 they should, if they are group 29/31 they might not,
Do not buy spiral cell AGM's like optima.  They make a poor choice due to lesser capacity than a rectangular battery.
The autoparts stores agms are likely best avoided for deep cycle duty too.


Read this link:
https://marinehowto.com/what-is-a-deep-cycle-battery/
\
If you don't want to, then here's a visual clue of the difference between a GC battery and a 12v marine battery:

[sternwake]

There are a few true flooded 12v deep cycle batteries but they tend to be much more expensive than their 6v counterparts for per amp hour.

The trojan t-1275 is a GC-12 size battery and has 150 amp hours.

Interstate vendors can obtain them, They might be made for interstate by exide or USbattery or whomeever will give them the best deal regionally for maximum profit

https://deepcyclebatterystore.com/t1275/

The GC-2's can be obtained for under 100$ each at batteries plus or sams club or costco, and tw of them give about 220Ah of capacity.

If you're looking for AGM's

Lifeline AGM is considered the best deep cycle
Northstar and Odyssey make the best dual purpose AGM. they have huge cranking amp figures and cycle well.

These AGMS above need to be treated to very high charging amps occassionally, when deeply cycled regulrly. They will not be a good 'solar only' battery

Full River and Vmaxtanks and UB/UPG batteries sold on Amazon seem to give ok to good service, from what I read, but these all say no more than 30 samps per 100Ah of capacity charging current.

I have a tiny UB12180 battery(18ah) and exceeded this maximum charge rate by a factor of 6 without a mushroom cloud.

AGMS can be a superior battey, but it does not make them immune to poor charging practices, and they are a bit more finicky in what they need to live closer to their maximum potential.

The flooded golf cart battery is not only the best bang for the buck, amp hour and cycle wise, it is the easiest to rechearge fully and most tolerant of undercharging, and stand the best chance of recovery when a long intentional overcharge( equalization) is performed on them.

The weaknesses of GC-2 batteries is they are not good at powering huge loads, like a microwave through an inverter, when not fully charged. One woulld need 4 of them to power a microwave reliably at less than 100% state of charge, where as 2 group 27's 12v could likely power it for the required time at 70% charged.