LifePo Battery source

[S Cello]

I ran across this battery source tonight and I thought I'd share it if anyone might be interested.
If I'm reading it right and my math is right (doubtful!) it would appear that one could get these Lifepos for about what I paid for my AGMs, usable amp hours to usable amp hours. But without the BMS being included.

http://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/N...ed-Battery

This is the thread on a forum by/about a guy who is using them in his solar system for the last year. There is more interesting information in that thread too. There are some batteries coming in a year from some eastern European country that supposedly will blow the battery world apart. Check the thread for that info too.

http://www.timebomb2000.com/vb/showthrea...-batteries

Anyway, I thought it was interesting.

[Scott7022]

I asked my current employer on the drive into the city today if he had any knowledge of the Company or the players. He hadn't heard of them and he has significant holdings in the country. He did pull it up on his Ipad when we got cell service and then recognized a few names. They just signed a big memo of understanding with an Australian company. He can read and speak Chec. The official contacts with the countries government are sound. There has been some drama with investors from China and some legal issues at home surrounding employment practices but this is par for the course doing biz in the country. The Nevada move sounds like it is sound. Probably a few years before we can install, or argue about installing this tech but very cool post!

[frater secessus]

Electric Car Parts has a generally good reputation with the DIY community, from what I read.

> But without the BMS being included.

There is a school of thought that sub-C charge/discharge (as one finds in solar-equipped vans) is better off without a BMS.  I have collected the arguments on this wiki page.

[RoamingKat]

Well....I have been recommending them for a while now...but...with this caveat....

Do not rely on Carl or his employees to actually know anything..or be able to assist if you have technical questions.

I have batteries I purchased from them. After hiring an EE to help me with tech issues..I am happy with them. PM me if u have questions

[S Cello]

I just recently bought an 440 AH battery bank of four Crown AGM 6 volts. I am happy with it and will try to keep them going as long as possible utilizing charging practices as found in Sternwakes writings.

I was just very surprised at the low cost of these lifepo cells. Here's my possibly flawed math that caused my surprise:

72Ah 3.2V 230W 3C
So 3.2v x 4 = 12.8v thus 4 of these cells make one 72 AH 12v battery
3 x 72 AH(4) = 216 AH or 12 cells
216AH x .8 (80% usable) = 172 AH (versus my bank with 220 AH usable, close!)
12 cells x $94.50 = $1,134 (about what I paid for 4 AGMs)

Please feel free to point out my glaring mistake there so I can be educated!

I had previously heard that the lifepos where so much more expensive?

Thanks for the sleuthing, Scott!

[RoamingKat]

If you are unwilling to learn how to build and install LiFePo4..then if will go with the plug n play stuff...like battle born....you will see their costs triple the amount you could do it for

I have said it for a good long while...with lithium, you trade off your ability/willingness to learn for your money.

The system you describe is bare bones, assembly yourself. You still have to install battery balances, and think about the other two functions of the BMS...under/over voltage charge, and temperature cut off.

Like I said, the more you do for yourself...the cheaper is becomes.

Just..beware...there are lots of RV and van dwellers who will pontificate on the topic...but they have no actual knowledge. Before accepting what someone tries to tell you...ask them what batteries they have and where they bought them. That is also the problem with Carl...he doesn’t know how to deal with batteries that are charged from solar or wind charge controller...inverter/charger and/or car battery...since what he sells is supposed to BE the car battery.

[frater secessus]

I have said it for a good long while...with lithium, you trade off your ability/willingness to learn for your money.

I think it's that way with everything.  :-)

Just..beware...there are lots of RV and van dwellers who will pontificate on the topic...but they have no actual knowledge.   Before accepting what someone tries to tell you...ask them what batteries they have and where they bought them.

There are a lot of owners that will pontificate on the topic...but they have no actual knowledge.   Experience by itself does not confer understanding:  forums (and the world) are full of clueless people damaging, underutilizing, or otherwise misusing their gear.  That's cool;  it's their stuff.  The problem (as you point out) is the dissemination of misinformation.  

In the end it comes down to what we ourselves can learn and apply:  Make an informed decision -->  Learn from experience --> Repeat.

[Scott7022]

Wise words and I just posted on Gary's thread the same thing. Learning and charge issues and how to make it work without cooking something else or messing with something else is the major PITA.

Sure solar charger controller and Inverter charger from say Victron is pretty simple to set up and use. Now add the alternator. Automotive units aren't set up for this type of charging. They are added to supply energy to run a stereo, heater, and replenish the starter batteries. Even the twin alternators found in diesel super duty units have alternators that are a little more robust but nothing compared to the type Mechman makes for serious power requirements or Balmor make for boats. Google search Mechman and look at the stator and diode packs in these units. The problem is application again. Boat units are made to handle long charging cycles at a fairly consistent RPM that doesn't very like a vehicle. The Mechman units are made to generate power for mobile DB drag racing or boom cars. A pair of Mechmans units could generate 600amps at idle and if you had a 600amp/hr battery bank you could use that to charge at 1C (one capacity) most good units can handle one C charge at ambient 70 degrees. The issue comes with fuzing, charge controlling and isolating 500 amps of power. Forget the run of the mill automatic battery isolators and circuit breakers made for car audio they stop at 200amps. You need big fuses and very big wire, and marine latching relays just to get the power from the engine compartment to the charge controller. Then you need to find a charge controller. Sterling makes one for 120 amps you can parallel for 240. An Ausie company (ausies are years ahead in Lithium stuff) makes one you can parallel for 600. The Carbatterycompany uses a Balmar rig that protects the alternator if the BMS (battery management system) stops taking or accepting a charge. But they offer nothing for controlling the charge to the batteries past this fail-safe. The average automotive alternator without the euro regenerative braking crap is pretty stupid and moderately robust so it will work for a while. But a single van unit is only charging perhaps 120 amps so the smaller current numbers make this pretty easy. But to recharge a 600amp/hr battery pack you're going to have to drive a long time using the big chunk of steel as a generator.
My issues.
I want to generate the most surplus power I can rolling a big coal burner as a generator or it makes no sense. A forty minute booze and water run to town and back pretty much reaches the used capacity. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense to charge from alternators as it costs to much fuel and wear and tear on the units for the little added benefit.
Easier to charge the lithium from solar and a little Honda 2000. Uses far less fossil for energy. The Honda on eco mode produces enough power to let the Victron charge at 90 amps+incomming solar and trickle charge another battery bank (vehicle) at 8amps. It is set up for lithium and outside of a temp disconnect is set and forget.
As I already own five Battle Born I will stay with them and they have their own cold disconnect. If I were to desgin the system today I would go with the CarBatteryCompany batteries and forget charging off the alternator. I may in fact not use/upgrade the alternators for this build as the more I weigh the pros and cons it makes more sense to me to just upgrade the in truck batteries to four Oddessys and then a sealed XDpower group 31 in the rear cab to cover stuff loaded in the "Crew" area and leave the house batteries HOUSE units not connected to the engine. I would likely add the provision of a connection switch for the emergency but that is it. One chemistry front and one charging system. One chemistry rear and one charging system. Redundancy is good and with chemistry, YOU GOT TO KEEP EM SEPARATED!! LOL!

[RoamingKat]

Jason, Yes, learn from experience part is valuable. Taking in all information from other actual users is also valuable...is what I meant.

I have met people who will tell you all about it...when all they are really doing is a cut and paste from some website. I have met people who will tell you they know all about lithium, but they have never owned and used them...just regurgitating what they heard someone somewhere say. One fellow even wanted to charge me for his “knowledge” ... of which he actually had none.

[technomadness]

But a single van unit is only charging perhaps 120 amps so the smaller current numbers make this pretty easy. But to recharge a 600amp/hr battery pack you're going to have to drive a long time using the big chunk of steel as a generator.
Otherwise, it doesn't make sense to charge from alternators as it costs to much fuel and wear and tear on the units for the little added benefit.
Easier to charge the lithium from solar and a little Honda 2000. Uses far less fossil for energy. The Honda on eco mode produces enough power to let the Victron charge at 90 amps+incomming solar and trickle charge another battery bank (vehicle) at 8amps. It is set up for lithium and outside of a temp disconnect is set and forget.
As I already own five Battle Born I will stay with them and they have their own cold disconnect. If I were to desgin the system today I would go with the CarBatteryCompany batteries and forget charging off the alternator.

It seems with alternator charging, you're leaving energy on the table that you produce while driving anyway, that you could put into the house batteries. Your arguments make sense against the idea of the engine being the primary recharging source (assuming, say, usage exceeds solar coverage over some period) and thus the argument for getting a Honda 2000 makes sense. But if you will be driving for an hour or 4 hours, it seems a shame to not send surplus into the house batteries.

Here's a wild idea, invert the alternator output (after possibly cleaning it up for the inverter) to 120 or 240v, then put in a breaker (instead of fuse) and send that back to a charger for the house batteries. A lot easier to do a 120v 30A cable than a 12V 300A cable from the engine to the house batteries in the back. You just need a 3kw inverter.

This is also drawing less current from the alternator and thus hopefully would mitigate the concerns about over-using the alternator.

I'm not sure how to handle the situation, though, where the batteries are happily gulping down 3kw but the alternator doesn't have 3kw to spare.